On rebeliosity
WS:“It’s this way, first of all, taking on authority at every level, or at every opportunity. No, this isn’t true. I don’t believe that there is virtue in rebellion; that rebellion, in itself, can be a philosophy of life, or a guiding principle. It’s a question of, rebelling against what? And trying to put what in the place of what one rebels.
I find it very very difficult to stomach injustice. Well injustice takes many forms, there’s economic injustice, there’s social injustice, there’s political injustice, and ……is a condition of our lack of justice. It is a rebuke against one’s humanity. And then, I thought about it very deeply before I made it that oft quoted statement, that justice is a first condition of humanity. It’s something I believe very passionately, it’s my guiding philosophy, if you like. The occasion which you cited, these are merely manifestations of a very deep-seated conviction about what society should be like. I believe it’s possible for society, and humanity generally… -whether you’re talking about tribal groupings, religious groupings, class groupingS – I believe it’s possible for all groupings, no matter how diverse their interest, to find a harmonious modus vivendi, in means of cohabitation and self -respect, mutual respect, and of course, a sense of justice both for one’s self and for the other groupings. I mean if that is held, that simply stated, simplistically stated, principle in terms of cohabitation within groups, we’d have less stress, less strife, less conflicts, certainly even fewer ones in the global community. But as on example of my not adopting rebellion against authority as a principle, one good example is my so-called controversial (even though for me it’s not controversial at all) involvement with the Road Safety Commission. I saw this as something which that society needed, and if you lived in Nigeria, you’d have no doubt at all…”
On the nigeria project
WS: Nigeria can work if what I’ve established already as the binding principle of any community is adhered to, and that is a sense of justice. Without justice Nigeria will flounder. And at this very moment, an act of injustice is being perpetrated, one which is also an insult to certain sections of the country. This act, this crime, can lead to disintegration of Nigeria. I’m convinced that if this act of injustice is not rectified, Nigeria as a corporate entity is going to remain very very fragile. In other words, there’s…which has been inserted in what you call the ‘Nigeria project,’ which can prove fatal unless those cracks are mended right from the inside, internally. Not papered over, but really it needs a very strong and committed binding effort. In the ‘Open Store of a Continent’ I asked a question, “what is a nation” after all? What is it? How does it come about? And what are the prerequisites for the continued existence of a national entity. And for me the first item on that list of prerequisites is internal justice.
On restructuring
WS: Oh, we must decentralize, first of all we must decentralize. There’s far too much which has been gathered by the central government which then creates the situation, therefore, of winner takes all. And very often not even winner by any legitimate means. There has got to be a total devotion of powers in a far more evenly spread manner. In other words, we must go back to an authentic and genuine federalism. And the whole system of revenue allocation at the moment has got to be reviewed. It’s too much cheating going on. You know, people who produce the resources are being marginalized, and are being treated in a very contemptuous minority mentality. The whole system of governance which seems to ensure the system whereby power remains in only one section of the country has got to be reviewed.
On the futility of sectionalised masses struggles
WS: And that is the lesson which the opposition has been learning. In other words, the opposition now must be prepared to liberate space. Wherever the people are ready, that area should be made ungovernable, that’s all. If we’re going to wait until everybody is ready, we’re going to wait forever, and believe me, a lot of effort, as you know, has been spent in trying to mobilize everybody at the same time. If that strategy does not work, then those who are ready, those who say, from today on we will no longer be slaves, must be prepared to march forward.
There is no country where it is not one spot that actually begins a movement. Look at the entire history of the world, look at Spain till today, look at Ireland, look at the Soviet Union. If people wait until everybody, this is the lesson that the opposition has learnt, that don’t just wait; you liberate people mentally. Once they’re liberated mentally, then you move to encourage them, you spur them to liberate themselves physically.
I said those who are mentally liberated must move. You must; you cannot wait till eternity for everybody to be mentally liberated.There are people who suffer from the slave mentality. And you have to wait, when they see…Listen, look at the leadership, some of the leadership in the North, why are they so frightened of the rest of society? Because they know of certain areas in the country, because they see the people in those areas as being mentally liberated and they want to keep their own people down, they want to keep them down as serfs, and so on and so forth. And so that is why they are paranoid about certain other areas of the country. In other words, we’re talking about certain areas where people are already liberated. Again, let’s be cautious about this. Look at the last election. I watched tapes of the last election.Yes, the Abiolas/Tofa election. These people who were teeming out, whom I saw, you know, teeming out in support of their candidate, they were not dummies. You saw intelligence on their faces, they knew, they were sophisticated, politically. They knew who they wanted as president, and they came out in numbers… These were not rent-a-crowds which I was seeing, no. And you saw, you know, and then when Abiola was on trial, in Abuja at the beginning, you saw the masses and masses and masses of people who came out, even from the so-called unliberated ones. So it’s a very mixed bag, you know, very mixed bag.
On ending military incursion in politics
WS: If you notice that I even used the expressions like militarism, the entire military’s mentality in governance must be totally destroyed. The mystic of the military must be destroyed. People must learn not to fear, to recognize, the military’s got to be brought back into common denominator with the rest of society. There are so many other problems. That is one of the reasons, for instance, why we insist that one of the first steps to be taken after the removal of the present military menace is a sovereign national conference. And the agenda is there. The agenda, the decisions on boundaries. What are states? Who created states? Are they viable? Do people want to belong to this state or not?. The revenue allocation. What system of government? What system of representative? All the troubles of Nigeria are numerous. But first, we have got to get the transitional stage, and the transitional stage cannot take place under the military because it’s got a vested interest.
On answering to Kongi
WS: If I know people. I respond also to Prof. Don’t I? I respond to Egbon. I respond to… what else don’t I respond to? You know, that doesn’t mean that I take the character of er, no, no , no, not at all. I, in fact, created Kongi as a not very likable character. And if people decide they want to fix that on me, what can I do? But I answer because I know it’s made affectionally.
On not wanting his corpse taken to nigeria should he die abroad
WS: No, no, no, I said, as long as Nigeria is under the present military leaderships. Because I know if I am buried in that country, they will come and dance on my grave. And that might make people get very angry and I start another (laughs) palaver there. So, for the peace of everybody, as long as General Abacha is in that place, I don’t want my body taken over there. So I didn’t say if I die abroad, I mean if Nigeria is not liberated, then I prefer to rest outside, for the moment, temporarily.
On M.K.O Abiola declaring himself president ill-advised
WS: Well, we don’t know what assurances he had, do we? When he comes out we have to ask him what assurances did he have before he made that declaration. I don’t think Abiola is a mad man. I don’t think Abiola, without some kind of back up plans, would get up in Dugbe market and say, ‘I am the president,’ when there’s a military person there. If people failed Abiola, let them be honest enough to admit that they failed him. If people got cold feet at the last moment, you know, this is what we have to find out. I’m convinced that Abiola had certain guarantees of certain events before he took that particular action. I’m convinced of it.
On writing on his exile experiemce and sacking of his Abeokuta home
WS: Well, er. I don’t know, experiences take a while to be designed, I’m not a kind of instant reproducer of experience as some writers are. Mine always take a while, it sinks down, and eventually, you know, it may or may not. I mean I don’t feel a kind of compulsion to immediately translate experience into the written work.
As for my house in Abeokuta, it’s unfortunate that, er, the regime should think, you see that’s what they do all the time: this building which I put up, it’s not even for me as such, it’s actually part of the Essay Foundation which I was setting up for writers. Just to be a retreat also from time to time. I’ve always envied the kind of facilities which we, writers and artists, enjoy outside, where you can go for a few months, somewhere, and think, and create, be free from economic worry during that period. This is what I decided to do with my Nobel money, you know, everything is sunk in that house. So if the military wants, let them destroy it, they will answer to the Nigerian people, you know, later on. They deprived them of something which was given to them. (Clears throat).
On foreign language as bane of our development
WS: First of all, my language policy has been, you know stated over and over again. I believe that we, Black Africa, require a common language, in addition to everything else. And I voted for the Swahili language. Just a common language amongst ourselves into which we can translate literature and textbooks, er, of the sciences, technology and so on and so forth. And, if we eliminated some useless subjects in the school curriculum, we would have a generation coming up speaking this language, in addition to their own indigenous languages, in addition to either French or Spanish or English. We need a language of communication with the rest of the world. All the world needs a language of communication with Africa. And I think that we had that common language, I believe the agonizing over the imposition of colonial languages will be reduced considerably, and will encourage, of course, literature, the arts, in our own indigenous languages.
I think very often that the whole issue of language can be exaggerated. People try to make politics out of it. Some people take the purist line, don’t speak or talk any language but your own. I believe in multilingualism. I would like to be able to speak all the languages in Nigeria… I think very often this anguish is artificial. People grow up bilingual. Why should it be different in one place rather than the other? I know people who grew up, look, a child, a child is a fantastic instrument of language learning. A child can grow up speaking three, four, languages without any difficulty. If he is a Yoruba born in Hausa land, he is speaking the two languages, from home and what he picks outside, and why should it become a burden, when this is a clear advantage?
I don’t see why bilingualism, trilingualism, multilingualism, should not be encouraged in childhood. Children take naturally to languages.
On national malady argument: leadership or followership?
WS: Sometimes, it’s both (Laughs). Sometimes it’s both I think we have been cursed with leaders. That’s definite. We have been cursed with leaders in that country, we have spineless leadership. We had corrupt leadership, we had, you know, unintelligent leadership, we had, at least, one stupid president I can think of right away (chuckles). We have been unlucky in leadership. I think before disappointing the followership, we should concentrate on trying to…
Nigeria people have shown themselves very capable of much, they have shown that they are resourceful, in many ways and even though at times you wonder at the judgement of followers, er, I will still put most blame on what happens to leaders after they have been placed in positions of trust, which then creates some kind of cynical.
On whether nigeria is redeemable?
WS: Well, I cannot look at Nigeria which is so unnaturally generously endowed, in terms of materials and human resource, and say that there is a dearth of redemption. There is, there is redemption of Nigeria. But it’s going to be hard work.
On any redeeming values in favour of a united nigeria
WS: Well, there are school of thought which believe that Nigeria cannot be redeemed as a corporate entity. I don’t know that’s what you are talking about. And their arguments can be very very seductive, In the sense that they keep pointing to the principle, to the reality, that whilst certain people labour over time, expend themselves, sometime their lives, and even bend over backwards to accommodate others just to keep that nation one, there are others who seem not to care. And so, these ones ask, is it really worth only one side trying to keep the nation together? And we have, and one has to state this starklyso that everybody is aware that this tendency does exist, there are those who sat and bluntly say, ‘listen, you have wasted your energy trying to create something which is clearly untenable. And we are not about to sacrifice our lives, we have made up our mind that, no matter how long it takes, the country has got to break up, everybody’s got to go their own way.’ And it’s a very strong voice in that we talk, we argue with them, but they have made up their minds. And I am not talking of only one section, you know; no, no, no, it’s right round the whole country. So, let there be no complacency. Nigeria is viable, but it has to be made so, it is potentially viable, but a lot of work has to go into actually manifesting its viability. And there is a very large percentage, a large section of intelligent populace who have as far as they are concerned, worked it out. Have taken their position. So, er, we have a lot of work to do to persuade them that there is still life in the (chuckles) … project
On problem with the black man?
WS: When you find answer to that you let me know!
(Extracted from original interview serialized in The PUNCH newspaper in 1997)
